Next Meeting
Wednesday, Febr. 12, 5:00 pm
click here for Directions to the Music Room
Sadly, many of our homes have burned, some totally, some partially, and miraculously, some are left standing. We are all in the same boat, exciled into all parts of the City and even the country.
A process has begun for totally destroyed home to clear the property of debris. Currently, Pase 1 is underway, removing hazardours material, such as gas or propane canisters, or battery powerd burned cars. Phase 2 will be handled optionally by the LA County Corps of Engeers. It will, free of charge, clear the burnsite of all debris and optionally remove the building pad. To allow the County access to your property, you will need to submit a Right of Entry form. Please clich on the link below to register.
Registration for the ROE will begin Tuesday (January 28) on the County recovery website -- County Recovery.
The clearing of properties will be scheduled after all ROE's have been received by the deadline. Scheduduling will be in clusters. It was mentioned that bigger clusters will be given priority for efficiency reasons. So please take leadership and help your neighborhood organize the registration process.
For further information click here for Debris Removal Information
THINGS TO CONSIDER WHEN OPTING IN OR OUT FOR BUILDING PAD REMOVAL
The need to later remove the pad after FEMA is done and prior to reconstruction will add considerable cost to the project which must then be born by the property owner.
1. Concrete absorbs toxins.
2. Concrete weakens at high heat.
3. Steel in steel reinforced concrete gets brittle under high heat and further weakens the pad. It may also be bent and unable to tie into the structure. Above is a picture of the twisted steel frame of a former garage giving an idea of the temperatures the structure endured.
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Concrete Absorbs Toxins.
Concrete can absorb toxins during a high-heat fire in a building, but its ability to do so depends on several factors, including the type of fire, the materials involved, and the structure of the concrete itself.
Here’s how it happens: Mechanisms of Toxin Absorption in Concrete:
1. Porosity of Concrete: • Concrete is naturally porous, meaning it has tiny voids and capillaries that can trap gases, liquids, and particulates. During a fire, these pores may absorb toxic gases, smoke residues, and combustion byproducts released from burning materials like plastics, chemicals, or furnishings.
2. Chemical Reactions: • At high temperatures, the chemical reactions within the concrete can increase its ability to bind or interact with certain toxins. For example: • Carbon dioxide (CO₂): Released in fires, it can react with calcium compounds in concrete to form calcium carbonate. • Heavy metals and pollutants: Some can adhere to or chemically bind with the concrete’s matrix.
3. Soot and Hydrocarbons: • Burning organic materials release soot and hydrocarbons, which can deposit on the surface and penetrate the outer layers of concrete. This contamination often leaves the concrete permanently stained or damaged.
4. Absorption of Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs): • Fires involving synthetic materials (like plastics or insulation) release VOCs, which can be absorbed into the surface of concrete through its pores.
5. Retention of Waterborne Toxins: • Firefighting efforts often involve spraying water, which can carry toxins and residue from burned materials. This contaminated water may be absorbed into the concrete, especially if it cools the structure.
Post-Fire Effects:
1. Structural Degradation: • Toxins absorbed during a fire can weaken the concrete chemically, causing long-term structural degradation. • For example, acids from combustion can react with calcium hydroxide in the concrete, leading to further damage.
2. Health Hazards: • Concrete contaminated with toxins can pose health risks to workers and occupants during post-fire demolition, repair, or occupancy due to the potential release of hazardous residues.
3. Environmental Concerns: • If the contaminated concrete is demolished and discarded, toxins trapped in the material can leach into the environment, requiring proper disposal methods. Mitigation and Cleanup: •
After a fire, testing of the concrete for toxins is essential, especially in industrial settings or where hazardous materials were burned. • Contaminated concrete often needs remediation (e.g., sealing, resurfacing) or removal and disposal following environmental regulations.
In Summary:
Concrete does absorb toxins during high-heat fires due to its porosity and interaction with the byproducts of combustion. While this can sometimes preserve the structural integrity in the short term, the absorbed toxins may pose long-term challenges for structural safety, health, and environmental impact.
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Concrete loses strength at high heat.
Typical Temperatures in a House Fire:
1. Early Stage (Incipient Stage): • Temperature: 200–400°F (93–204°C) • At this stage, the fire is small and localized, with relatively low heat as it begins to grow.
2. Growth Stage: • Temperature: 400–1300°F (204–704°C) • As the fire spreads, it heats the surrounding materials, causing them to ignite. Heat transfer occurs through convection, conduction, and radiation.
3. Fully Developed Stage (Flashover): • Temperature: 1100–2000°F (593–1093°C) • This is the hottest phase of the fire. Almost all combustible materials in the space are burning, and temperatures can reach their peak, potentially melting metals and weakening structural materials like steel and concrete.
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Consequence of heat damage.
High heat can severely weaken concrete and steel, the two primary materials used in structural construction, by altering their physical and chemical properties. Here’s how:
Concrete:
1. Loss of Moisture: • Concrete contains water in its structure. At around 100–200°C (212–392°F), this water evaporates, causing microcracks and a reduction in strength.
2. Decomposition of Hydration Products: • The calcium silicate hydrate (C-S-H) gel, which gives concrete its strength, begins to break down at around 300–400°C (572–752°F), further reducing the structural integrity.
3. Thermal Expansion and Cracking: • Concrete expands unevenly under high heat, leading to internal stresses and cracking. At temperatures above 500°C (932°F), severe spalling (surface chipping and flaking) can occur, exposing inner layers to the heat.
4. Carbonate Decomposition: • If limestone is present in the concrete (as part of the aggregate or cement), it begins to decompose into calcium oxide and carbon dioxide at temperatures around 700–900°C (1292–1652°F), which weakens the structure.
Steel:
1. Loss of Strength: • Steel begins to lose its strength significantly at temperatures above 400°C (752°F). At 600°C (1112°F), it retains only about 50% of its strength, and by 800°C (1472°F), it retains just 10% of its strength.
2. Thermal Expansion: • As steel heats up, it expands. This can cause buckling or deformation, especially in structural elements like beams and columns.
3. Softening and Melting: • Steel softens and becomes ductile at high temperatures, making it unable to support loads. Its melting point is around 1370–1510°C (2500–2750°F), but failure occurs well before that due to the softening.
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from ChatGTP:
Why remove a building pad after a house fire.
Removing a building pad after a house fire that fully engulfed and destroyed the structure is often necessary for several reasons, ranging from safety and environmental concerns to ensuring the structural integrity of a future rebuild. Here are the key reasons:
1. Contamination and Toxic Residues • Absorbed Toxins: Building pads, often made of concrete, can absorb toxic residues from burned materials such as plastics, chemicals, and synthetic construction materials. These contaminants can include: • Heavy metals (e.g., lead, mercury). • Volatile organic compounds (VOCs). • Hydrocarbons from soot and smoke. • Asbestos, if present in the structure. • Health Hazards: Contaminated pads can release toxins over time, posing health risks to workers, future occupants, and the surrounding environment.
2. Structural Compromise • Heat Damage: Intense heat from the fire can weaken or degrade the structural integrity of the pad, even if it appears intact. This may include: • Spalling: The surface layer of concrete can flake off, exposing the inner layers. • Chemical Changes: High heat can break down the internal composition of concrete, reducing its strength and load-bearing capacity. • Reinforcement Damage: Steel reinforcement (rebar) inside the pad can warp or lose its tensile strength due to extreme heat. • Foundation Cracking: Stress from the fire or firefighting efforts (e.g., water cooling the pad unevenly) can cause cracks that weaken the pad.
3. Compliance with Building Codes • Rebuilding Requirements: Local building codes often require that a damaged or compromised pad be removed before reconstruction to ensure the new structure meets current safety and engineering standards. • Environmental Regulations: Fire-damaged pads may need to be removed to comply with environmental laws that prohibit the reuse of contaminated or weakened materials.
4. Fire Debris Cleanup • Embedded Debris: Fire debris, such as charred wood, melted materials, and ash, can embed into the pad. These materials can be difficult to remove entirely without demolition. • Proper Disposal: Removing the pad allows all fire-related debris to be disposed of properly in accordance with hazardous waste regulations.
5. Geotechnical Concerns • Soil Contamination: Toxins from the fire can leach through the pad into the underlying soil, requiring remediation. Leaving the pad in place may prevent proper cleanup of the soil beneath. • Future Foundation Stability: A fire-damaged pad may not provide a stable or level surface for new construction, potentially leading to structural issues in the future.
6. Insurance and Liability • Insurance Requirements: Insurance companies may mandate the removal of a damaged pad as part of the claim settlement to ensure proper rebuilding and prevent future liabilities. • Liability Risks: Leaving a compromised pad in place could expose property owners to liability if it fails or causes harm during or after reconstruction.
7. Aesthetics and Property Value • Visual Damage: Fire-damaged pads are unsightly and can lower the overall value of the property. • Clean Slate for Rebuilding: Removing the pad provides a clean, safe, and stable foundation for future construction, ensuring the property is restored to its full potential. In Summary: Removing a building pad after a house fire is often necessary to address contamination, ensure safety, comply with regulations, and provide a clean and stable base for reconstruction. This process is typically part of fire debris cleanup and rebuilding efforts, ensuring the long-term integrity and habitability of the property.
This is a summary from the PPCC of the Debris Removal Town Hall presentation with the link to the You Tube recording.
For those who couldn't attend or who would like a refresher, here is a link to the YouTube recording:
The Marquez Knolls Property Owners Association was founded in the 50’s by the Lachman Family after they bought the hillside property from movie star Jack Conway (alas Jacon Way) to administer and manage the CC&Rs for most of the 23 tracts they developed. Over 600 homes were built to maximize the spectacular hillside views.
The association has grown to include over 1,200 homes, adding adjacent tracts to the initial boundaries, now covering an area from Bienveneda to Palisades Drive, and Sunset to the Mountains (gated communities are excluded). There is great commonality: potholes, graffiti, crimes, fire safety, traffic, speeding, blocked roadways, building/construction violations, noise, coyotes, snakes, deer, cougars, lost and found dogs, cats and turtles.
MKPOA's mission is to enhance and protect the quality of life in Marquez Knolls. The organization promotes and encourages the preservation of the beauty and healthful environment by informative, educational, mediational, and other lawful activates for the benefit of its residents.
An important role of the CC&Rs has always been the protection of the views. Today’s MKPOA’s significant focus is still to assist in the preservation of these views. The organization has written Amicus Briefs, appeared in court on depositions and recently petitioned the Supreme Court to re-hear a case.
The association has influence and exchanges information with the Pacific Palisades Community Council, other Home Owner and civic organizations, and our LA City Councilmember. MKPOA can communicate directly with LAPD, LAFD, DWP or State Parks. MKPOA is there for personal questions such as street parking regulations, watering schedules, downed trees, and most recently on what to do when a cougar took down a deer on private property. Over the years it has helped to solve a thousand problems and has answered a thousand-and-one questions. What is yours?
On June 20, 2019, MKPOA was informed that the appellate court chose not to enforce a view restriction in CC&R paragraph 11, recorded in 1962, and instead ruled in favor of a neighboring property owner’s free use of land (Eisen vs. Tavangarian). It interpreted Paragraph 11 to apply to trees and hedges view obstructing, but not to obstructions due to remodeling/additions to the main house.
Greenberg Glusker blog sums up the essence of the problem: Paragraph 11 of the CC&Rs prohibits “any structures erected that may at present or in the future obstruct the view from any other lot.” The complaining neighbor in the Eisen vs. Tavangarian case prevailed at the lower court level when the judge found that various improvements to a newly renovated $9.4 million home “unreasonably obstructed” the plaintiff’s ocean views.
The appellate court reversed the trial court’s decision. It framed the issue as a seemingly straightforward question: “Does paragraph 11 of the CC&R’s apply to alterations or renovations to existing homes?”
In 2005, the same appellate court, in a case entitled Zabrucky vs. McAdams examined nearly identical CC&Rs of a neighboring tract in Marquez Knolls. That court held that paragraph 11 applied to any alteration or remodel of an existing dwelling that “may at present or in the future unreasonably obstruct the view from any other lot.”
Over a decade later, the Eisen court stated that the Zabrucky majority misread paragraph 11 of the CC&R’s. The Appellate Court ultimately concluded that paragraph 11 restricts only building a new structure, and not making alterations to an existing one.……MKPOA became alarmed that the Eisen appellate court decision and its reasoning could weaken view protection for all Lachman CC&Rs with its interpretation of Paragraph 11, that has effectively removed view protection when your neighbor remodels the house. The threat is that tear-down/renovation has become the “new normal” in Marquez Knolls.
Since June 20, 2019 MKPOA has written an Amicus Letter to the Appellate Court to reconsider the case - denied; has hired an attorney to submit an Amicus Letter to the California Supreme Court to review the case - denied; is investigating the option to revise the language in the CC&Rs to make it “court proof.” To read more about MKPOA action defending CC&Rs:
click here - Amicus Actions Eisen vs. Tavangarian.
Baseline Mansionization Ordinance (BMO) and Coastal Zone
In early 2021, new construction on the corner of Marquez and Ida kept growing in volume and in height to 42 ft. It loomed taller than anything else around, dwarfing the neighboring ranch-style homes and the Marquez School across the street. Taller than anything in the commercial district it now rises four stories above Ida. The neighbors complaint loudly. City inspectors came and went.
MKPOA and the Pacific Palisades Community Council (PPCC) were approached for opinions. Each cautiously pondered over the so carefully drafted zoning code developed by the much beloved former Councilman, Marvin Braude with a 35 ft height limit.
City inspectors did find some violations but not with the floor area and not with the height limit. We heard the conclusion that its height and floor area are legal under current zoning laws and that its construction will continue.
The Area 3 Representative (which includes Marquez Knollls) on the PPCC kept pushing for answers for our residents.
Our own MKPOA President, Howard Robinson, a retired land-use consultant and chair of the PPCC Landuse committee discovered the anomaly.
In layman’s language the legality of the Ida home is based on the following: when the Baseline Mansionisation Ordinance (BMO), or better known as the flatland anti-mansionization ordinance, was implemented in the City of LA, the areas covered by the Coastal Zone in the non-hillside areas were exempt because Coastal was expected to undergo its own revision of the zooming codes. That never happened. It left the non-hillside R1 areas under Coastal with 40 year old antiquated zoning codes.
Coastal codes allow among others a 45ft heigh building and a building-site-x2 floor area which produces a massive volume for the building which is then higher than commercial structures in the Palisades. Those structures are limited to 35 ft. since the Councilman Braude era. PPCC unanimously supported the modification of the “Coastal donut holes” to align with the standard R1 regulations which limit the height to 35 ft. among other rules.
Interestingly, Mike Bonin introduced such a motion in early 2020 at the LA City Council. It passed unanimously but was never acted upon. MKPOA will continue to advocate that PPCC pursues our current Councilmember, Traci Park, to follow up on the unanimous Bonin motions toward implementation of that change. We have already planted the seed with Traci when she visited Marquez Knolls.
We already see building permits filed under Coastal rules in the Palisades. Actions to implement regular R1 rules in the Coastal Zone are urgent or sooner or later we will see giant structures lining Marquez Ave. and other areas of the Palisades.
P.S.: The LUC produced a comprehensive report on Coastal and all other zoning restrictions in the Palisades. It is published on the PPCC website www.PacPaliCC.org along with a map of other such area in the Palisades that currently allow this construction. The report is invaluable